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Mr Squirrel wrote:Im not going to bother quoting your last post Smegs but i will pick up on a couple of things..

NIST...
You dont care what NIST say? Previously, you were using the NIST reports as some kind of 'support' for your theories... now, as predicted, you are dismissing the findings by NIST that only one column needed to fail to bring about total building collapse because it rendered your theory as nonsense. You claim not to be hypocritical, your hypocrisy beggars belief.


I'm not using NIST as any support for my views at all. There's no hypocrisy. if you're going to claim hypocrisy on my part then please show some actual evidence of it. So far you've shown none. Everything I've said about NIST is written in previous posts.

I doubt you read the detailed report about WTC7 that I linked to in the previous post, just like you probably haven't matched the official explanation about the alleged 757 hitting the pentagon and then seeing the actual evidence proves this didn't happen.

I'm not going to include NIST as part of the cabal that deliberately covering up the truth about 911, but NIST haev to work under certain protocols. There was never goign to be any chance that NIST could conduct a proper enquiry. 1] the physical evidence of the building was quickly swept up and taken away, and 2] they were told in advance what caused the building to collapse.

They had to make their explanation fit. Interestingly they failed to do this with their first report. They also failed to do this with their second report.

The problem for NIST is that many many people aren't unaware of the laws of physics. All 50 odd outer columns of the building had to fail simultaneously for the building to fall straight down. NIST cannot explain this. Al they can do is publish some fancy animation, in which they withold the scientific data that led to generating this animation.

Frankly it's amateurish, but I don't blame them presonally becuase they were hamstrung



Terrorists turning up alive and well...
Well, we only have the claims of certain media to go on dont we? I havent met them, you havent met them and they certainly have not been brought to the attention of the world in a 'large' manner. Indeed, even if they had turned up alive and well and paraded across the worlds mainstream media (The media that you distrust so) ... so what of it? Its quite common practice within the criminal world to steal other peoples identity. Stolen and forged passports have long been used by criminals as means to commit crimes without being caught before the crime has been committed. So why is it so suspicious that somebody turns up alive after the only evidence for them being involved and killed was some easily forged documents?


So you are saying the Zionists stole the identities of real people to fabricate the bunch of alleged hijackers to attribute to their false flag?

Well yes that wouldn't surprise me.

But yes you're right, none of us have met them. We don't know whether they existed before OR after 911.

So it's moot point really. :thumb:



Pilots claims...
I know some Pilots have claimed that the terorists couldnt have piloted the planes with their limited skills but there have been many Pilots who have not made such claims and supported the notion that they could quite easily perform the tasks they did. I view those claims much like this..... I know many Truck drivers that claim to non truck drivers that driving trucks is almost a genius like skill and the mere mortal would not be able to do so. That claim is the claims of arrogant people purporting their trade as something that it isnt. A remotely competent car driver could drive a truck in simple terms. They could put it in gear and make it move, maybe change a few gears, they could steer it and make it stop but without some quality training over a few weeks, they would stand no chance of passing the test and rest assured, the public would be in danger but to perform the simple tasks of moving and steering - no problem.
The pilots fall in the same category.. They didnt need to perform the hard tasks of taxing along the runway, taking off or landing. All they had to do was gain control (i will come to that later) point the thing in the direction of the towers and open the taps. Basic flying skill is all that is needed there and no 'honest' pilot worth his salt would dispute that.



Sadly for your claim, the pilots are saying the flightpaths of the planes required much more than basic flying skill. I hate using appeal to authority, becuase it's a logical fallacy, but most people would give more weight to the testimony of pilots than to Squizz the truck driver

personally I try and judge the info on it's own merits, not who said it.





Taking control with box cutters...
Yes, its hard to believe that a number of people working as a team could board a plane and take it over by threatening the passengers and crew with sharp knives and threats of bombs about their persons. Remember that pre-9/11, no hijacker had deliberately flown the plane into buildings. The general protocol at the time was to comply with the hijackers requests, usually flying somewhere and landing to then make negotiations with professional negotiators. Generally, if you did what you were told, the hijack ended with little or no lives lost. Nobody expected what happened after the hijackers took control on 9/11 to happen. Its understandable that passengers and crew chose not to tangle with a number of allegedly armed nutcases... Given previous hijacks, keeping calm and carrying on was the best policy at the time. Remember also that pre-9/11, internal flights in the US were treated almost like bus journeys.. security was very lax and the possibility of somebody getting knives and bombs onto the planes was much more likely than it is now.


How about no hijackers took control of planes on 911? If you've any evidence to show they did then please produce it. No one else has. not even the American government. "we said so" is not evidence.



With respect, you are focusing your theories far too much on situations and life in general after the event than before it. The same can be said for many of the examples you give.. they are in reflection of the CT theories you have indoctrinated yourself with. You wish to question the 'official' versions far more than you are willing to question the CT's and you cannot see the hypocrisy within your remarks. This is a shame. Your an intelligent fella but you have had your brain filled with anti-western (regime) propaganda from dubious sources for so long, you cannot see the wood for the trees.


That claim implodes into nonsense, because everything I calim I have worked out for myself, from the available evidence. I haven't shown a shred of hypocrisy, and everytime you've claimed hypocrisy ( like above ) I've shown that to be nonsense. Everytime!

And you're bringing other people's theories into it again. Yes I've read some other people's CT's regarding 911, and I give them exactly the same treatment as I give to the official conspiracy theory. i.e i want to see evidence and common sense rational. Rationale that also conforms to physics and reality



The truth is, A very small number of pissed off Terrorists from probably an Islamic region conducted a well planned attack on the US on September 11th 2001. This group of people may not have belonged to a 'major' terrorist network but the result was successful on their part. They gave the west (US especially) a poke in the eye that they would never forget. So much so, here we are 11 years on still talking about it and i dare say, we will probably still be talking about it in 50 years time.


The truth? Are you really being serious?

How come you know so much that no one else does? How do you know "A very small number of pissed off Terrorists from probably an Islamic region conducted a well planned attack on the US on September 11th 2001."

The claim Islamic terrorists orchestrated and committed 911 is not the truth. It's just a Conspiracy theory, and given there's proof at least some of it is nonsense it's not a very good CT either.

Why are you peddling a CT as being the truth? That's the sort of thing Organised Religious adherents do. "It's the truth becuase the bible says so" is no different from "It's the truth becuase the American government says so"

You wrongly accuse me of being indoctrinated by CTs abndthen in the same post you turn what is nothing more than a badly concocted conspiracy theory as being truth.

Can you tell us all why you blindly believe the conspiracy theory about 911 as peddled by the US government? I'm genuinely interested in the psychology here.

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Again, im not going to quote your post and break it down piece by piece.. at this moment in time, im off to bed shortly and have a busy weekend ahead but i intend to return to this discussion as soon as i have some free time. For now though, i shall pick up on a couple of your points, the rest i will address later.

Smegs wrote:So you are saying the Zionists stole the identities of real people to fabricate the bunch of alleged hijackers to attribute to their false flag?


No, i never suggested anything of the sort. I suggested that criminals have used forged and stolen documents to aid their 'cover' when committing crimes, long before 9/11. All the 'zionists' have as 'evidence' of these people is the boarding list of names No bodies were found or formally identified. Please remember that it was you who brought up the subject of these people turning up alive and well - not me.. i merely addressed it so please dont make out that its a 'moot point' now and dismiss it like you did with the subject of the missing passengers. Wich leads me on to the subject of hypocrisy... Your posts are laced with the stuff. The NIST reports is one example.. you persisted with the NIST findings until i gave you a quote from NIST and links to their own website and reports - then you claimed that you didnt care what NIST said but in turn, decided to provide a link to a third party website with NIST reports. Hypocrisy personified.

Finally for now (the rest i shall address later) your claims that you think for yourself is laughable. Your theories are nothing i havent watched or read myself at some point in various CT propaganda shit. You have not adequately provided any answers to independent questions i have raised to you and have only continued to parrot the repetitive derge spewed out by the CT films and literature mixed with condescending remarks about my understanding of physics which in itself would be side splitting if not so tragic.
I am not the one who expects buildings of many hundred thousand tonnes not to fall in any other direction than gravity dictates... thats you and you still havent answered it.
I am not the one who expects said very tall, very heavy buildings not to collapse quickly when their structure is compromised by significant damage and fire - you seem to be under the impression that they should crumble away slowly like a wet cake.
You cannot provide any reasonable answers to any of the legitimate questions i have posed to you and are persisting with the CT nonsense that most realistic people left behind a long time ago. You are not asking thoughtful questions nor supplying any answers, you are merely repeating what you have seen and read backed up with dubious links and outlandish claims.

Piss - bed - laters.

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Mr Squirrel wrote:Again, im not going to quote your post and break it down piece by piece.. at this moment in time, im off to bed shortly and have a busy weekend ahead but i intend to return to this discussion as soon as i have some free time. For now though, i shall pick up on a couple of your points, the rest i will address later.

Smegs wrote:So you are saying the Zionists stole the identities of real people to fabricate the bunch of alleged hijackers to attribute to their false flag?


No, i never suggested anything of the sort. I suggested that criminals have used forged and stolen documents to aid their 'cover' when committing crimes, long before 9/11. All the 'zionists' have as 'evidence' of these people is the boarding list of names No bodies were found or formally identified. Please remember that it was you who brought up the subject of these people turning up alive and well - not me.. i merely addressed it so please dont make out that its a 'moot point' now and dismiss it like you did with the subject of the missing passengers. Wich leads me on to the subject of hypocrisy... Your posts are laced with the stuff. The NIST reports is one example.. you persisted with the NIST findings until i gave you a quote from NIST and links to their own website and reports - then you claimed that you didnt care what NIST said but in turn, decided to provide a link to a third party website with NIST reports. Hypocrisy personified.


Give me some specific examples of Hypocrisy. I haven't persisted with NIST findings whatsoever. I've just said they admitted part of the collapse was at freefall speed. NIST didn't originate the freefall speed fact, they admitted it after other people made the finding and proved it to them.

you persisted with the NIST findings
Readers of this thread will note that I have repeatedly said that NIST have failed TWICE in explaining the collapse of WTC7. Twice!!! They simply cannot explain why all 50 odd outer columns failed simultaneously. I certainly haven't persisted with the NIST findings. I haven't persisted with any NIST findings at all. NISTs explantion is something that had to be sledge hammered into fitting an already pre-determined outcome. That's just trying to get some scientific weight to a very dodgy conspiracy theory. They failed Twice :)




Finally for now (the rest i shall address later) your claims that you think for yourself is laughable. Your theories are nothing i havent watched or read myself at some point in various CT propaganda shit. You have not adequately provided any answers to independent questions i have raised to you and have only continued to parrot the repetitive derge spewed out by the CT films and literature mixed with condescending remarks about my understanding of physics which in itself would be side splitting if not so tragic.


Ahhhh I get it. Because other people have made the same and similar claims to myself then by some strangely applied logic I MUST have copied them.

Well sorry to disappoint, but I've formed my conclusions all by myself. If others have formed similar conclusions, well that's cool

As to understanding of physics, you are the one that's exposed your misunderstanding of it by a] claiming the weight of the building would increase the faster it gets, and b] claiming the effect of ratio of resistance to mass would change with a heavy building and a light structure. I would simply ask you to put those claims to a structural engineer and listen to their response


I am not the one who expects buildings of many hundred thousand tonnes not to fall in any other direction than gravity dictates... thats you and you still havent answered it.


Who has said the building fell in the opposite direction of gravity? Still if are serious with that claim then please show where I have suggested the building fell upwards. This is getting comedic now :)


I am not the one who expects said very tall, very heavy buildings not to collapse quickly when their structure is compromised by significant damage and fire - you seem to be under the impression that they should crumble away slowly like a wet cake.


Total nonsense. I've never even come close to suggesting or claiming that.

Two false claims in a row

You cannot provide any reasonable answers to any of the legitimate questions i have posed to you and are persisting with the CT nonsense that most realistic people left behind a long time ago. You are not asking thoughtful questions nor supplying any answers, you are merely repeating what you have seen and read backed up with dubious links and outlandish claims.

Piss - bed - laters.


No, I am giving a view which I've concluded by myself. It's a testament to the weakness of your arguments when you have to resort to putting claims into your opponent's mouth and simply accusing him of parroting Theories made by others. the first is disingenuous but the second is simply worthless as a debating currency. Even if I was parroting what was claimed by others it wouldn't matter if the information stands up on it's own two feet. People parrot Einstein's theory of relativity all the time, life is to short for everyone to work it out themselves. but anyway I can assure you that I form my own conclusions, If you choose not to believe that then not much I can do about it.


But it interesting that you talk about parroting other CTs. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and won't automatically claim you are simply parroting a theory put forward by the US Regime and will assume you concluded the following "truth" all by yourself ...

Mr Squirrel wrote:The truth is, A very small number of pissed off Terrorists from probably an Islamic region conducted a well planned attack on the US on September 11th 2001. This group of people may not have belonged to a 'major' terrorist network but the result was successful on their part. They gave the west (US especially) a poke in the eye that they would never forget. So much so, here we are 11 years on still talking about it and i dare say, we will probably still be talking about it in 50 years time.


Can you tell us what actual evidence you used to conclude this truth. I've been researching 911 for years and have NEVER come across any evidence to support this claim whatsoever. Sure the US Regime created this Conspiracy Theory, and indeed it's been parroted by the Western Mainstream Media who are too frightened to challenge it, but that's not evidence.

I await your explanation. In particular as it contradicts the proof that a 757 did not hit the pentagon.

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Utter guff. And if you want to talk about 'comedic' i strongly suggest that you reflect over the 'putting of words into other peoples mouths'.... that is your first chosen attack in any debate and you are very quick to approach uncomfortable questions and hypothesis with derogatory remarks that other people, including myself choose to try to avoid. On this occasion, i will return the attitude.

However....
I've been researching 911 for years


Implies to me a person with nothing else better to do with their lives and further, i find it astonishing that for all that 'research' you cannot find it within yourself to answer the questions that i have posed to you on several occasions, instead concentrating on 'rubbishing' common sense. I have stated on many occasions that i have no explanation for the Pentagon attack and that some aspects of the 9/11 attacks are 'odd' but to use words similar to yourself when you cant answer questions.... I have no 'evidence'.
Your a right detective you are mate... The 'evidence' you provide is through dubious conspiracy theory websites whereas i provide links to the horses mouth. NIST did provide an explanation to the collapse of WTC 7... column 79's failure, fires and damage but upon that information, you dismiss it as a coercion to abide by instructions. More CT shite!

Its clear that you have no desire to discuss the subject with an open mind and consider valid points.. you are adamant without question of your ill based theories straight out of CT word and are avoiding answering questions honestly in favour of deflection.

Believe what you like mate.. i would rather piss on an electric fence that debate this issue with you any further. I cant be arsed anymore.

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"More CT shite!"

This comment exposes the core of your mindset. Anything that challenges the official version, in this case the NIST explanation, is dismissed as "CT shite"

You recently claimed the US regime's conspiracy theory as being 'The truth', despit4e having no evidence or rationale to support that, yet you are ow claiming CT is shite.

Yes I have been researching 911 for years. I'm not ashamed of that and I don't need to defend it as there's nothing wrong with doing so. Researching 911 is just one part of my interest in geo-politics and I have plenty of other things in my life that take precedence er these subjects, but even if it was a primary interest, so what? People have hobbies and interests. Surely you have them? Should we suggest your hobbies and interests are becuase you've nothing better to do with your life? So really..

Implies to me a person with nothing else better to do with their lives


... is nothing more than a pointless and unwarranted personal attack. Why even make that comment? Do you really feel the need to attack what other people choose as hobbies and interests?

i find it astonishing that for all that 'research' you cannot find it within yourself to answer the questions that i have posed to you on several occasions


Actually I'm proud of admitting that some questions regarding 911 I cannot answer. And neither can you. Why should you find it astonishing? You can't answer these questions either. Should I find it astonishing you can't answer them?

The 'evidence' you provide is through dubious conspiracy theory websites whereas i provide links to the horses mouth


This is also bollocks and is clinging on to the nonsense claim I can't think for myself. Another personal attack. The only evidence I provide comes from actual videos and pictures of the events. If I link to a 3rd party site it's because it aligns with my own view

In fact saying "dubious conspiracy theory websites" is ignoring the evidence which stands up on it's own two feet. You can't credibly demolish a point because of who said it.

You haven't provided any links from the Horses mouth. Quoting NIST blindly isn't going to convince anyone and they aren't the Horses mouth anyway. NIST is just a We know the handicaps NIST were under to provide an explanation to an already foregone conclusion. You're quoting NIST and their "Column 79" as if it was an accurate and truthful explanation. Well it isn't.

I'm still waiting for you to provide the evidence for the following claim of truth...

Mr Squirrel wrote:The truth is, A very small number of pissed off Terrorists from probably an Islamic region conducted a well planned attack on the US on September 11th 2001. This group of people may not have belonged to a 'major' terrorist network but the result was successful on their part. They gave the west (US especially) a poke in the eye that they would never forget. So much so, here we are 11 years on still talking about it and i dare say, we will probably still be talking about it in 50 years time.


I have an open mind. All I'm looking for is the truth. If the truth is 19 Muslim extremists omitted 911 then I want evidence for that. So please provide it.

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Another video showing the demolition of WTC7. Look at 0:38 you can see the 'squibs' out of each of the upper floors just before the building collapses. Classic demolition.



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Never realised David Lynch had his doubts about 911:

Image

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phild05 wrote:Never realised David Lynch had his doubts about 911:

Image

:chin:



Yet even with the proof some people will be unable to face the prospect that 911 was a false flag.


The proof a 757 didn't hit the pentagon is easily obtained by one's self. There's no need to blindly believe anyone and thus you can't be accused of being gullible to either what some would call conspiracy sites or maisntream media sites.

******************************************************************************
Pentagon Proof
******************************************************************************

Look at the official explanation in animated form.



Then look at the pictures of the pre-collapsed building

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/pentago ... /blue.html

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I can face the prospect of 9/11 being a false flag.

But 'joining the dots' for myself... I dont believe it for many reasons.

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Mr Squirrel wrote:I can face the prospect of 9/11 being a false flag.

But 'joining the dots' for myself... I dont believe it for many reasons.


Fair enough, but how do you reconcile the Pentagon '757 fantasy' with it 'not being a false flag' ?

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smeggypants wrote:
Mr Squirrel wrote:I can face the prospect of 9/11 being a false flag.

But 'joining the dots' for myself... I dont believe it for many reasons.


Fair enough, but how do you reconcile the Pentagon '757 fantasy' with it 'not being a false flag' ?



I have always maintained that the Pentagon attack was 'iffy' to say the least. Always.

Dunno... RPG attack? Missile fired from a US fighter jet? well placed IED? Jackson in admin having a very big Curry the night before and lighting up a sly fag in the toilets?

Who knows? But just because one or two pieces of the puzzle dosent fit, it dosent make the entire jigsaw 'not fit'. It just makes the overall picture incomplete.

Using the jigsaw analogy.... To me, more pieces of the 'official' jigsaw fits together than than the pieces of the CT jigsaw. Both are flawed, both have gaps, both pictures are incomplete but the 'official' version produces a much clearer picture than the CT one which is there but with more parts 'missing' or 'unfitting' and the picture is blurred.

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Mr Squirrel wrote:
smeggypants wrote:
Mr Squirrel wrote:I can face the prospect of 9/11 being a false flag.

But 'joining the dots' for myself... I dont believe it for many reasons.


Fair enough, but how do you reconcile the Pentagon '757 fantasy' with it 'not being a false flag' ?



I have always maintained that the Pentagon attack was 'iffy' to say the least. Always.

Dunno... RPG attack? Missile fired from a US fighter jet? well placed IED? Jackson in admin having a very big Curry the night before and lighting up a sly fag in the toilets?

Who knows? But just because one or two pieces of the puzzle dosent fit, it dosent make the entire jigsaw 'not fit'. It just makes the overall picture incomplete.

Using the jigsaw analogy.... To me, more pieces of the 'official' jigsaw fits together than than the pieces of the CT jigsaw. Both are flawed, both have gaps, both pictures are incomplete but the 'official' version produces a much clearer picture than the CT one which is there but with more parts 'missing' or 'unfitting' and the picture is blurred.


But there is no evidence linking Islamic Terrorists to 911. Unless of course you count someone confessing to it after being tortured over a 100 times. And even then we've only got a proven liar's word that he did confess.

I'd confess to starting the French Revolution after that. I'm sure you would too! :)

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Likewise, there is no evidence to incriminate US 'officialdom' in the 9/11 attacks... only supposition.

Unless of course you count the numerous conspiracy theorists viewpoints as 'facts' as opposed to what they are - opinions and despite that many of these opinions have been exposed as 'unlikely' (to be generous) It remains that 'joining the dots' is purely that - a matter of opinion with little/no 'evidence' either way and if anybody had a shred of real evidence against the US, they would provide it and do those victims on the day and subsequent victims of Iraq and Afghanistan some justice.

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Mr Squirrel wrote:Likewise, there is no evidence to incriminate US 'officialdom' in the 9/11 attacks... only supposition.

Unless of course you count the numerous conspiracy theorists viewpoints as 'facts' as opposed to what they are - opinions and despite that many of these opinions have been exposed as 'unlikely' (to be generous) It remains that 'joining the dots' is purely that - a matter of opinion with little/no 'evidence' either way and if anybody had a shred of real evidence against the US, they would provide it and do those victims on the day and subsequent victims of Iraq and Afghanistan some justice.



Bit in blue

Agreed.

But there is evidence to show they are lying about 911.


if anybody had a shred of real evidence against the US, they would provide it and do those victims on the day and subsequent victims of Iraq and Afghanistan some justice.


As said there is evidence and even proof to show the US regime is lying about 911. Now documentaries, of the likes of BBC's panorama, etc have been made accusing people and entities of things based upon much less.

IOW the mainstream media could, it wanted to, produce endless programs and articles calling into question the official 911 theory, and asking for a proper investigastion be done into the event. But of course it doesn't does it? The BBC even goes one stage further and is complicit in preventing such an investigation with it's programs like The conspiracy Files. It even uses one of the sources of proof a 757 didn't hit the Pentagon, in that program, to absurdly try and show how the 757 did hit the pentagon. Proof that the BBC is also lying and a complicit part of the propaganda.

The fact is that most people irrationally trust the BBC and not trust alternative or 'amateur' media outlets. And this is the problem. If the BBC took the same Purdue university computer animation and match it up with the actual pictures of the pentagon they could easily show the proof a 757 didn't hit the pentagon.

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Mr Squirrel wrote:
smeggypants wrote:
Mr Squirrel wrote:I can face the prospect of 9/11 being a false flag.

But 'joining the dots' for myself... I dont believe it for many reasons.


Fair enough, but how do you reconcile the Pentagon '757 fantasy' with it 'not being a false flag' ?



I have always maintained that the Pentagon attack was 'iffy' to say the least. Always.

Dunno... RPG attack? Missile fired from a US fighter jet? well placed IED? Jackson in admin having a very big Curry the night before and lighting up a sly fag in the toilets?



I believe the pentagon was wired up with placed charges and a small amount of planted plane wreckage and exploded to coincide with the flyover of the 757 looking plane that was seen flying over the pentagon ( In a flghtpath DIFFERENT to that as claimed by the US regime, as testified by several independent witnesses including the police ) )

Because of the discrepancies in flightpath I don't buy the cruise missile dropped from the plane theory.

While their is no direct evidence to incriminate the US regime, it does imply that someone with access to the Pentagon was responsible.

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You may well be right.

Blindly believing everything that i dont read in the daily propaganda tabloids


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Butting nose in here, lots of photos,vids can be doctored as we know,official pics and CT's pics equally.

:maddy: Image


Image

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Dolls wrote:Butting nose in here, lots of photos,vids can be doctored as we know,official pics and CT's pics equally.



Absolutely. :thumb:

Blindly believing everything that i dont read in the daily propaganda tabloids


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Mr Squirrel wrote:
Dolls wrote:Butting nose in here, lots of photos,vids can be doctored as we know,official pics and CT's pics equally.



Absolutely. :thumb:


They can indeed.

here's the pics. make your own mind up :)

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/index.html#precollapse

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smeggypants wrote:
Mr Squirrel wrote:
Dolls wrote:Butting nose in here, lots of photos,vids can be doctored as we know,official pics and CT's pics equally.



Absolutely. :thumb:


They can indeed.

here's the pics. make your own mind up :)

http://www.911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/photos/index.html#precollapse


AND?

How many times do you need to be told?

"I have always thought the Pentagon strike was 'Iffy' to say the least"

Why vous ne compre?

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